Take an ice cream cone away from a toddler, and you might get a swing at your arm.
Most of us just file those moments away as bad behavior and carry on. I'd never have thought to call it revenge until I spoke to James Kimmel Jr.
James is a lawyer and a lecturer in psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine and was the first to identify compulsive revenge seeking as an addiction. He authored The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction and How to Overcome It. His interest in the subject dates back to childhood.
At 12, his family moved to a farm, and the kids on the neighboring farm wanted nothing to do with him. Over the next few years, that turned into bullying, first with words and then physically. One night he heard a gunshot and saw one of the boys' trucks pull away, and the next morning he found his beagle, Paula, dead in her pen. A few weeks later they blew up the family mailbox, and teenage James grabbed his dad's loaded revolver and chased them down a country lane. He tells the rest in the episode.
Why a parenting podcast is talking about revenge
In his research, James sees revenge as the motive behind most of the harm people do to each other on purpose, from playground bullying all the way up to intimate partner violence and much bigger things. He also pointed out that almost every bully felt like a victim first.
We teach kids about drugs and sex in school. Nobody really teaches them what to do with the urge to get even, and as a pediatrician with a public health lens, that gap stood out to me.
What's going on in their brain
It all starts with a grievance (real or imagined) in the form of a sense of having been wronged, shamed, betrayed, or treated unfairly. The brain registers that as pain and then goes looking for relief. Getting even gives you a quick hit of feel-good chemicals followed by a drop, and when that cycle is repeated, it can easily start to look like other addictions.
Grievances are in the eye of the beholder. A lost turn, a lost game, a brother taking the TV remote. It may be nothing to us, but to a kid it can be a real grievance, and the way they react tells you a great deal about what's going on inside.
Revenge doesn't always come down on the person who caused it. Think of a parent having a bad day at work: they can't snap at the boss, so they come home and snap at the kid. I've been there on the show. Kids do the same thing to their siblings.
He also gave me one question to ask myself whilst disciplining my own children, and I haven't been able to get that out of my head.
What You'll Walk Away With
The antidote doesn't require a prescription. James calls it forgiveness, and the brain science behind it was surprising. In his model, it happens within you. You don't need to tell the other person, and it doesn't mean you're just going to stay in a toxic relationship or give up on your own self-protection.
We talk about how this applies to how I deal with so many of the feelings kids have, and why it only works if we model it ourselves. I also share a bit about my own childhood and what forgiveness actually looked like for me.
James also goes through his Nonjustice System (including a child-friendly version which is based around a school discipline hearing) and the free Miracle Court app for adults. Still not convinced that a pretend trial in your head could possibly help you forgive anyone? That's precisely what this section of the episode is about.
The kid who hits back is generally the one who felt hit first.
Go Listen
Listen to my full conversation with James Kimmel Jr. wherever you get your podcasts. We cover:
What early revenge looks like in toddlers and young kids
The difference between self-defense and revenge
The question to ask yourself before a punishment goes too far
The Nonjustice System and how it helps victims avoid becoming the next bully
Find James at jameskimmeljr.com (including a free quiz on your own relationship with revenge), try the app at miraclecourt.com, and look for The Science of Revenge wherever you buy books.
Revenge Is Addictive-Here’s How to Break the Cycle in Childhood before it begins
A small way to support the show
I am so grateful that you continue to make space for these conversations. If the podcast has been helpful to you, leaving a review wherever you listen is one of the simplest ways to help more parents find the show.
And I always want to hear from you. Reply to this email and let me know what topics, questions, or conversations you would love to hear more about in future episodes.
